Our Guest Mentor:
Chris Belchamber is the Managing Partner at CB Investment Management and also an Amazon bestselling author of Invest Like the Best: The Low-Risk Road to High Returns. His objective is to compound and preserve wealth, as well as make it possible to enjoy wealth to the fullest extent possible, both now and throughout your lifetime. With a career spanning more than 35 years, he has focused on serving his client’s best interest through investing with the same principles and practices of the most successful investors who have multi-decade track records of outstanding performance as outlined in his book, comprehensive and personalized financial and retirement planning, and wealth preservation.
His mission, as an investment advisor, is to help clients avoid the hidden pitfalls in the investment process and achieve a successful long-term outcome and a better financial platform for life.
After graduating with a Master’s degree in Mathematics from Oxford University in England, he began his financial services career that spans more than three decades. His experience ranges from authoring a book on the UK government bond market published by Credit Suisse First Boston, to proprietary trading for JP Morgan in London.
Chris has been practicing as an Investment Advisor since 2003 and is based out of McLean, Virginia, USA.
Key Quotes from the Episode:
[On automation and systems] “And some of the best investors that I mentioned in the book and the most famous is Jim Simons with Renaissance Fund, which you see his results is completely automated. He and a lot of the best investors, they’ve realized that their own viewpoint or opinion about a trade is typically much worse than the system they develop. Even the most famous investors surrender their own thinking entirely to their system because they just learned that their system becomes more reliable” [15:40]
[On career advice] “You’re going to be wrong a lot. And if you’re, as George Soros said, it doesn’t matter whether you’re right or wrong, it only matters how much you lose when you’re wrong and how much you make when you’re right.” [23:42]
[On investing] “I basically say that, investors have a choice about how much their destiny is going to be dependent on luck. And how much is going to be dependent on developing their own skillful process.” [27:48]
Key Points from the Episode:
- The importance of aggressively managing risk over chasing returns;
- What’s System 1 and System 2 thinking and how finance professionals and leaders can use this knowledge to their advantage; and
- Where the astute investors are being clever with their capital and put their money today.
Stamped Show Notes
[02:55] Chris describes how he got to where he is now.
[04:04] A point in Chris’ career that made an impact on him
[07:05] Chris explains further the key theme of his book which is to aggressively manage risk. It seems like a paradox when you say lower risk leads to higher long term returns, but Chris shows many examples about how this works and why it is mathematically true.
[09:56] Chris discusses why people are so focused on return and pay less attention to risk.
[14:34] Chris tells how to deal with Daniel Kahneman’s System 1 and System 2 thinking,
[20:12] Chris elaborates where the astute investor can look to be clever with their capital and put their money.
[22:54] Chris shares the best piece of advice he has ever received in his career.
[25:58] Resources that Chris recommends for the audience.
[27:44] Chris shares his parting thoughts.
Invest Like the Best: The Low-Risk Road to High Returns Kindle Edition – February 23, 2021 by Chris Belchamber (Author)
The Intelligent Investor: The Definitive Book on Value Investing. A Book of Practical Counsel (Revised Edition) Paperback– February 21, 2006 by by Benjamin Graham (Author), Jason Zweig (Author), Warren E. Buffett (Collaborator)
Connect with today’s guest:
#344: How to Invest Like the Best with Chris Belchamber
[00:00:30]Andrew: [00:00:30] Hi everyone. And welcome to this week. Strength in the numbers.
[00:00:33]I’m really delighted to share with you today. This week’s guest mentor, Chris Belchamber
[00:00:38]I’m one of the really cool things about having Chris on the show this week is that he shares a different side of finance. That a lot of us probably haven’t had the chance to get involved with. We might’ve dabbled with investing and stock shares bonds, and. And commodities and so on. But Chris has been trading all his life and turns a lot of that knowledge into a recent book, invest like the best, which is built on those many years worth of experience.
[00:01:03] But also who’s very popular blog chrisbellchamber.com.
[00:01:07] So, although a lot of the advice comes from the investment community. We do our best to try and apply it to the lives, the roles of finance professionals, finance leaders, and finance teams in general. And some of the key topics we actually unpick together is the importance of aggressively managing risk.
[00:01:26] Over simply chasing returns. I think that’s a very key point. We shouldn’t lose sight of also what is system one and system two thinking. So of you, might’ve heard this come up before, but where we take that topic with Chris is actually on how we as finance professionals can use this awareness,
[00:01:44]How our brains operate and actually use it to our advantage in making better decisions within our organizations. And of course it wouldn’t be complete having Chris on the show and not asking him and him sharing where the astute investors are being clever with their capital and their money at the moment. So look, hope you really enjoyed this episode.
[00:02:04]And if you did, you can find out more about Chris, the key quotes, detailed time, some show notes, transcripts, or [email protected].
[00:02:12]And we really appreciate you tuning in today. So that’s enough for me. So without further ado, over to Chris on the show,
[00:02:18] Chris, welcome to the show.
[00:02:25]Chris: [00:02:25] Hi, Andrew. Glad to be here.
[00:02:27]Andrew: [00:02:27] It’s our pleasure to have you. I’m really excited to share you with our audience, because they might know it from previous conversations we’v had on the show with other guests mentors, but I did have a fascination with financial markets and investing when I was younger, but then I got too stuck at accounting on my journey, but I suppose in terms of your career journey, I’d love if maybe you could describe how you got to where you got to, before we go into the rest of the interview.
[00:02:52]Chris: [00:02:52] Oh, yes. I was a mathematician coming out of college and wasn’t sure what I wanted to do. So I started out doing two jobs at the same time. I was an actuarial trainee and a computer programmer. I enjoyed the computer programming, but I got distracted when I reached the investment part of the actuarial training and I knew that this is what excited me, what I wanted to do.
[00:03:17]And I drew me into Big Bang in sort of 1986 when London International. So it was a really good sort of time to be involved in and to get started. So I never really looked back.
[00:03:31]Andrew: [00:03:31] I think a lot of our audience can relate, maybe falling in love with the numbers and the techniques and understanding how businesses work and where value comes from and stuff like that. But before we jump into some ideas on that, I just want to get a sense of when you were going through your career, you probably experienced a lot of economic ups and downs and the expression, change is constant. Is there any point during your career that particularly stood out that was quite memorable and had a big impact on you?
[00:04:01]Chris: [00:04:01] Yeah, 1987 was certainly a fascinating time.
[00:04:07]And I was an options trader. I’ve never really been that comfortable being showed options. I always, think about that. So I was always worried about tales as we call it . And so fortunately I wasn’t showed options. But I see some people near me were and they got taken out. Yeah, it was pretty rough. 20% in a day is unusual.
[00:04:29] Andrew: [00:04:29] Yeah. You were so new into your career. That must be quite scary.
[00:04:36] Chris: [00:04:36] Yes. Yeah, that’s right. I was newly on the trading desk cause I really was an analyst to begin with, but that was when I started trading. So I was on the trading desk at that time, writing a book as I was training. Just crazy. And I mentioned that the cameras were actually in the company I worked for at the time, Credit Suisse First Boston.
[00:04:53] And I actually saw the cameras. They did a show on TV afterwards, which was actually in the office. And they had this picture of a tray of saying while the offer is this so the bid is. It’s certainly makes you think. Yeah, and it was quite amazing because myself and another analyst, that she’d gone round, we’d produced a paper in the summer of 1987 saying you need to be careful about equities. How about selling equities and buying index then guilds, just, hedge yourself up a little bit.
[00:05:29] So we trolled around all these institutional investment houses and, as is typical, when that is such a the equity market is so powerful. No one will listen. We went in and, we had so many people, big investment managers of institutions and no one would listen.
[00:05:51] It’s funny how everyone just gets caught up in the moment. And it gets anchored to recent conditions and once you’re in that behavior, just things won’t come out. So unless you have a discipline where you’re saying okay, let’s be honest.
[00:06:07] What is the prospective return? Yeah. And able to analyze that and say okay, it’s nice trend, but look at the territory we’re in. And you would think that a lot of asset managers would look at it that way. But I think people get very caught up in the near term stock price performance and don’t want to be the winner.
[00:06:27]Andrew: [00:06:27] I love getting into some of these things because you wrote a rather excellent book packaging a lot of those experiences in and making sense of it all. Like with that example, it’s a very good example of recency bias and then the loss aversion as well. There’s so much in your book. I would just love to unpack with you. I don’t think we’ll have enough time, but we will share your contact details at the end so everyone could follow up with you, but I suppose, in terms of the key themes from your book, I really appreciated how you called out that we need to aggressively manage risk.
[00:06:59]Where were you coming from when you talked about that?
[00:07:01] Chris: [00:07:01] I think it’s something that, you know I’ve always been aware of when I talk to people. That people don’t really think enough about risk. Whenever you talk to people they will talk about, Oh, I picked that stock and it went off 50%. I’m a genius.
[00:07:18] Andrew: [00:07:18] We all know at least one.
[00:07:22] Chris: [00:07:22] They always want to talk about their returns. And, all of us, occasionally have a good return on something on our portfolio, that’s just part of being involved. What goes up in your longs. It was a great feeling. But the point of investing is to end up way ahead over five, 10, 20, 30 years.
[00:07:47]That’s what’s important. And if you got all your money in the stock market in 1987, or March, 2000, or, September, 2008, you’re going to lose a lot of your money and it’s gonna take me an awful struggle to get back. And in one of the chapters, chapter six, I analyze the dynamics of compound interest.
[00:08:09]It’s not that complicated really, but it’s so important and people don’t think like that. They didn’t think that actually if you just try to compound it 4% say, which is very modest objective and you lose 20% in a year. To get back to that compound 4%, the next year, you have to make 35%.
[00:08:36] You have to make almost double the game just to stay on a 4% track. The easier way is to avoid that 20%. But people like that. The book is about how to invest like the best and what the best investors do.
[00:08:51] All of them. Without exception. I think the priority is risk. I think that I start that chapter, which is chapter five, about what are the principles I use Warren Buffet and Seth Klarman and in their two quotes, they use the word ‘never’ three times, never put return ahead of risk. And that’s pretty emphatic for guys who compounded 20% for decades. That shows where their priorities are.
[00:09:23]Andrew: [00:09:23] Maybe counter-intuitive is the wrong word, but it really does counter to a lot of the financial headlines we see in the papers. Which is generally, if you think about it all about the great returns people are making. No one ever really puts risk first, which is did a great job managing risk over this period of time and therefore doesn’t have to work as hard to make back the loss or something like that. And it’s not putting that longer-term perspective as well. Actually I was wondering Chris, any ideas why that is? Why people are so focused on return and maybe pay less attention to risk.
[00:09:54] Chris: [00:09:54] I think it’s just behavioral. People want something’s exciting. Say if someone’s getting rich, I could get rich too. And I could get rich quickly. Those are behavioral triggers that people just can’t avoid effecting them. And so it’s great for the media. It’s great if you’re an asset manager selling, you can say we made 20% last year.
[00:10:18]Those return numbers can be very dangerous. I mean in the book in chapter four, I talk about John Meriwether Long-Term Capital and he made 300% in three years. I think, I don’t know about 10 Nobel prize winning scientists on his team. He had a fantastic reputation on everything and more or less, most of his clients were investment professionals from across Wall Street. Most people thought I just don’t have to worry, this guy’s going to make a hundred percent every year. And people just get caught up in that. And then of course, in a few months these goes bankrupt, because they’re just so obsessed by the return not thinking about the risk.
[00:11:08] And I actually met John Meriwether in 1997. The head of the European office of Long-Term Capital Management spent a day with me. I was on the JP Morgan private trading desk and, I didn’t realize it, but they were looking for someone to join them.
[00:11:25] And so we spent a day and we got on pretty well. And then he got invited me, why don’t you come over and see our shop which was a fabulous office, of course, in the Baltic Square, just off Regent Street. So I wandered over there and sat down and we started talking and said, Oh, by the way, here’s John Meriwether. Would you like to meet him? okay. Yeah, that’d be nice. We sat down and we had a long conversation. Clearly, they were looking for partner or something like that after three years of 300%. And we talked a lot. But it was interesting that, when we talked about risk, the energy in our conversation suddenly took a dive.
[00:12:02] Andrew: [00:12:02] Oh, interesting.
[00:12:03] Chris: [00:12:03] Yeah, it turned out and there’s a lot of links about what was really going on at Long-Term Capital that I didn’t really know but I sense the energy on the risk thing. It turns out they had $4 billion in capital and they had $125 billion in positions. So they will leverage early times.
[00:12:26]You get like a 5% adverse move in their portfolio and they’re insolvent.
[00:12:33] Andrew: [00:12:33] Yep.
[00:12:34]Chris: [00:12:34] While the bull market’s going on. Sure. Yeah. You could make a hundred percent but how are you going to get out? How are you going to know you’re going to avoid, just the 5% adverse move in your portfolio. In retrospect now that I read what was actually going on, it was an accident waiting to happen, but you had the whole experts across Wall Street invested in this fund.
[00:12:58]Andrew: [00:12:58] Yeah. So-called Experts.
[00:13:01]Chris: [00:13:01] The partners had their money in this fund. This is an industry that has got risk and return we’ll figure it out. We’re the pros we’ll help you cause we know about that. No. What the investors need to understand is there is massive endemic confusion about risk and return, right the very top of Wall Street.
[00:13:22]Andrew: [00:13:22] When you laid out like that, Chris. It does seem very profound but look at the examples and time and again we see a coming again and again, and actually the Long-Term Capital Management. When I was studying financial economics at school, I loved the math behind it. I thought it was very elegant and it felt like it was a money-making machine. I could see how people fell in love with it but I suppose as more recent times as a finance professional we come across techniques pre-mortems where you look at the downsides of a decision before you make it to at least flesh out what might cause something to go wrong. It’s talking about risk side of the equation, but it is interesting how experts or so-called experts get caught up in waves of things, and I feel that’s where sometimes you need to have a break and that’s what I love when you explore Daniel Kahneman’s System 1 and System 2 thinking, I thought it was really well done because even that baseball bat experiment he runs, it’s so easy for people who should know better to make the wrong judgment.
[00:14:22]So if you don’t mind just maybe sharing with our audience, what you’re proposing there on the system side of things.
[00:14:27]Chris: [00:14:27] How to deal with the
[00:14:28]Andrew: [00:14:28] How did it deal with the system one system two.
[00:14:30] Chris: [00:14:30] Oh, right? Yes, absolutely. There’s a part of you brain, System 1, which generally gets in the way of you being successful because it’s emotional, it’s reactive. There’s not a lot of thought that goes into what you’re doing. Its behavioral. So you really need to understand yourself and those triggers that are in you and have a checklist so that you won’t get triggered or those parts of you that have anxiety will actually be controlled in some way.
[00:15:02] And then once that’s under control, there’s the other part of your brain, which is the chess player. The strategic aspect. Where you’re calm and you can think back and you can see the pros and the cons and you can work it out. What makes sense?
[00:15:16] The problem with that second part, the strategic part, System 2, is that most people find that’s exhausting and time consuming and all of those things. So to help raise that part of your game. That’s where you can use software. So software can be such a game changer.
[00:15:37] And some of the best investors that I mentioned in the book and the most famous is Jim Simons with Renaissance Fund, which you see his results is completely automated. He and a lot of the best investors, they’ve realized that their own viewpoint or opinion about a trade is typically much worse than the system they develop.
[00:16:02]Even the most famous investors surrender their own thinking entirely to their system because they just learned that their system becomes more reliable. Jim Simons, definitely. I have many others I could mention. That is probably the extreme, but I think that most of the best investors use systems in some kind of way to just degree.
[00:16:27]Andrew: [00:16:27] When you were running through the example of Jim Simons, it’s not a case that it’s passive investing, which we hear this phrase of. It’s actually you’re continually evaluating, in fact, you are controlling, you’re continually monitoring the situation.
[00:16:42] Chris: [00:16:42] Yeah, the risk is real time. The idea that there is a single static factor, which describes a person and a single static factor that describes a portfolio and that you can simply take that portfolio off the shelf and apply it to that person. And then say, okay, we’ve done our job. See you six months later. That is standard procedure for a number of various, but in March of 2020, volatility went from 11 to 85 in five weeks. Now, what portfolio or person was feeling stable and able to just say, Oh, it’ll work out. That didn’t work out very well in 2000 or 2008. We only recall it because we have the biggest stimulus we’ve ever seen in history at the end of March. And we’re still trying to figure out what all that means.
[00:17:40]Yeah so this idea that you can not pay attention. And I say at the beginning, I used the quote, like you’ve McCullough of Hedgeye basically says that to be as successful long-term investor, you need to be able to actively manage risk. So that’s a quote out of the horse’s mouth as it were. But I think they would all agree with that.
[00:18:02]This idea of passive investing. I spend large amounts of time in chapter eight about it. And I use a quote from Benjamin Graham that you’re basically become price insensitive about buying it. So you just have to be invested. It doesn’t matter when you do it.
[00:18:19] And you don’t, as we just discuss, you don’t react either. And so I actually put Benjamin Graham’s quote. Which he wrote in the 1930s looking back what happened at 1929? And he said passive investing in the 1930s. He said, looking back at the 1929 collapse could not possibly do anything other than fail.
[00:18:43]And today we have more passive investors than ever before. Because they’re behavioral, because the market keeps on going up. When it comes back, you’ve got massive fiscal and monetary inputs that’s going to keep it going. The central banks have become helicopter parents for the markets and that reinforces their viewpoint. And, people get anchored into that and great. Actually you can trade that very well, but you need to know at the same time that you need to have a time horizon that makes sense for what you’re doing. And you need to realize that if you’re a passive investor, you have a very long time horizon.
[00:19:30]And you’re not going to react. Now you can do the sums. Okay. I buy a bond yielding 0.6 for 10 years, which is where the 10 year treasury got to. And you can say how is that going to make me rich? You’d have to believe that interest rates were going negative or, what about inflation and taxes?
[00:19:53] And there’s no prospective return in months so.
[00:19:57] Andrew: [00:19:57] But it is interesting. Cause if the equities are at risk of overheating, at the moment or whatever. Where does the astute investor then look to be clever with their capital and put their money?
[00:20:09]Chris: [00:20:09] There’s always someone, somewhere to go. Money will always go somewhere and sometimes it needs to go to cash. Yeah. I think, I wrote it at the beginning of 2020. I wrote a blog, which saying basically where we have a prospective return crisis which is only going to get worse.
[00:20:25]So in other words, what you have to do is you have to crumb shorter term because the markets could, carry on up. But that means you need to, buy the dips and sell the rise kind of thing. So you’re accumulating safely. So when the big four does come, you’re out. And if you don’t have a process to doing that, and you’re just sitting there you’ll have a sort of John Meriwether outcomes, you make huge amount of money and then you lose it all.
[00:20:54]What’s the point of that. And I don’t think people are, again, looking at the prospective return. Like we talked about 1987. Now you can just draw a line over the last 40 years of the price to sales ratio and then the subsequent 10 year return from the S&P 500 and you get this very accurate a regression line.
[00:21:19]And obviously the higher, the price ratio, the worse your tenure return. And, the way we’ve got to right now is we were right down at the very end of this line. And John Hussman has done all this. He’s a PhD from Michigan University. Wonderful website. It does all these sums and regressions, and what have you. Right now, your expected return from the price to sales ratio, which is the cleanest metric you have because no one can really define earnings, very, uniquely. So we’re about prices sales, you can have some sales. Today, your expected return is minus 5% every year for 10 years.
[00:22:04] If you just sit back and yet at the same time, we have more passive investors that we’ve ever had before. So no one is interested in your prospective return on risk manage or short term risk management.
[00:22:17] Andrew: [00:22:17] But for me that was one of the most powerful charts in your book. And I have to say that was really profound I’d never seen an analysis like that. And I would never have thought about looking at a financial ratio in that way.
[00:22:29]So that really rounded home to me. And again, that’s why I feel like that chart and how it’s treated in the book is worth the price of entry. It’s fantastic. Fantastic, Chris. You’ve been giving us some fantastic advice and I said, I could keep you on forever asking these questions, but I suppose in terms of yourself, what’s been the best bit of advice you’ve ever received in your career.
[00:22:50]Chris: [00:22:50] I think, there’s probably a number of things. I think don’t lose money, stay in the game, if you lose money you’re out of the game. Don’t do that. Another one that I’ve heard and said this to some extent and I have contemporary hedge fund manager, guy called Mike Taylor also says it.
[00:23:09]And I think it’s don’t be right. Make money. Because a lot of investors put a huge amount of effort into being right. So I bought the stock. I’m really think I’m right about the theory about this and, you’re tied up in the theory and you got to realize, so when you go into investing you’re events are already in there. You don’t control. Did you do control yourself? And however smart you are. You’re going to be wrong a lot. And if you’re, as George Soros said, it doesn’t matter whether you’re right or wrong, it only matters how much you lose when you’re wrong and how much you make when you’re right. And that’s, I think people really need to look at things in that very basic way. It’s in many ways, what is more important than why? It doesn’t mean you shouldn’t spend a lot of time doing analysis and what have you. I spent a huge amount of time on that, but at the end of the day, whatever your idea you’re done, you’re doing, you’re in the market. You have a position you don’t know what’s going to happen. You’re not, you just don’t know, and you have to be able to manage that risk. And if the market at that time, that place doesn’t like your idea get out because however well received your idea is for whatever reason, and it doesn’t matter what the reason is, you’re going to lose money.
[00:24:39] So I think there’s a lot of traps like that with people falling into and you have to learn how to avoid that and yeah. Do what works.
[00:24:50]Andrew: [00:24:50] I think that’s great advice and actually that’s again, I think that was another good thing about your book that if your investing like the best, you got to look at what works. And also, you examined some bits of what didn’t work as well. Which again, I think it’s very useful to see both sides.
[00:25:04] I think there’s too much focus on survivorship bias, and a lot of these things. So think it’s important to see the other side of it. And that helps with the focus on risk management as well. Cause, cause that’s a fundamental part of the value equation, right.
[00:25:17]It’s the denominator. So you manage that well, you increase the potential, the expected value goes up.
[00:25:25]I often overlooked, I think that the returns is like the sexy bit, the Wolf of Wall Street piece. The risk is the on glamorous piece. And I suppose if we’re doing analysis and looking at things and wanting to be right. We need to look at the risk as well involved and I think that was your advice, Chris.
[00:25:40] That’s fantastic. If our audience are trying to check out resources to learn more about this, obviously we’re going to put a link to your book in the show notes. Are there any useful websites, or the books they should go check out in your mind, Chris.
[00:25:54]Chris: [00:25:54] Yeah, so there are lots of great books you have mentioned. And Graham, as I mentioned is he wrote the classic, The Intelligent Investor. That’s great. I follow people. I follow, Hedgeye. He has a book club. It’s where he tries read a book every 10 days.
[00:26:08] And you can share that on his website and he’s constantly learning. You know what, there’s a wonderful book about poker and how people behave in poker and it’s has enormous parallels with investing. So yeah there’s a huge amount I would definitely be an avid reader.
[00:26:24]Never learn too much. I basically write a lot of blogs. And very often I use other people’s intelligence as well as my own. So that’s on chrisbelchamber.com. I’ve just done an Instagram site. It’s just investlikethebest.Book. And that is going step by step all the way through the book, all the insights and I’m mixing in some other things as well, which relate.
[00:26:49] So that’s a really good resource for taking a quicker review of the book without having to read it although reading it as better. So that’s good way to follow and read. Let’s see what’s in there. Yeah, so that’s it. I’m on LinkedIn. I’m very prolific on LinkedIn and yeah that’s basically where you can find out more.
[00:27:09] Andrew: [00:27:09] So look, I got to do my best Chris to capture all those links, put them into the show notes. And interested about the Instagram one. I’d love to hear how you get on. I’ve always got mixed emotions about Instagram. I’m not a big user myself, but I know a lot of our listeners are using it more. So again, this, maybe that’s something we should get more onto as well, but thanks for those tips. Look I really enjoyed our conversation. We’ve only skimmed the main areas of the book. There was so much more in there, but in terms of wrapping up, would you have any parting thoughts for our audience to consider.
[00:27:41] Chris: [00:27:41] Yeah, I think that, it’s like it’s in the conclusion. I basically say that, investors have a choice about how much their destiny is going to be dependent on luck. And how much is going to be dependent on developing their own skillful process. And so I think people to the extent that you don’t have a clear process about how you go about investing is also the extent, that you’re bringing in luck to your outcome. So you need to think about that and you need to get yourself some standards and get yourself to a place what the best investors do. You don’t have to ask anyone else’s opinion, you have the tools, you have the metrics how to assess your performance.
[00:28:37] You do all that, you’re taking back control of how you invest. That’s really what I want people to be able to move towards, take out the luck and bring in the successful path of the best investors. And the thing is you’re going to be taking less risk, not more, you’re going to have taken out the stress.
[00:29:02] All those things and you’re going to do better is as that’s what I experienced and that’s what the best investors experience. So I think about that.
[00:29:12]Andrew: [00:29:12] What a great way to wrap up the show. I feel like we could do a whole podcast just on that parting thoughts as well, but I’ve got to draw it there. Be respectful of your time. Chris, thank you so much for being such a great guest mentor Strength In The Numbers.
[00:29:24] Chris: [00:29:24] Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it. Thank you.